Law enforcement

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Flapjack
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Law enforcement

Post by Flapjack » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:47 pm

Looking for advice on how to handle a law enforcement officer when they tell me that the river is closed. This happened to me today on Jacks And Sugar creek. Although we had already done 2 laps on Jack Creek, I went to see if I could get across the bridge at Knobbersford. County deputy,at the bridge,told me the river is closed and I could not float it. My question is can they do this, would I have been arrested, and what can we do to address this upcomming problem. Dennis Buccella
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Hcarr999
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Re: Law enforcement

Post by Hcarr999 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:19 pm

Give them the one finger wave!
Paddle or die!!!!

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Roger
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Re: Law enforcement

Post by Roger » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:56 pm

Not sure that the local leo's can close a stream unless there is some ordinance which I doubt is in place
Contact the agency and ask for an explanation and proof of their authorizatio.
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Cowper
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Re: Law enforcement

Post by Cowper » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:03 pm

For me, this is one too many cases of this happening in the National Forests, and specifically in the Ouachita National Forest. I'm hoping someone with a silver tongue will step forward to find out who the "top dog" in the NFS, and open a dialog with that person. Some guidance needs to come from the top down or this is going to happen again. So far, all examples I've heard of have been in the Ouachita National Forest, so I think it is a safe bet that this is directly related to the tragedy at Albert Pike. Those who work in the Ouachita's were closest to this, and it has clearly had an impact on how they intend to deal with the public going forward.

Oh, and as far as dealing with an individual officer on the riverbank, if you can't convince him of your ability to safely float the creek, I think you're just going to have to walk away. This is only my opinion, but I think failing to follow the directives of an LEO who believes he is acting within his authority to protect the public safety is not going to end well for you. I'm thinking ticket as a minimum, with arrest not out of the question.

On the other hand, meeting with some higher-ups, showing them some "taken in Arkansas" creek videos, and having a frank discussion about both the risks and about the number of deaths of good boaters in Arkansas doing these kinds of things (1 in the last 30 years???) might lead to a guideline that encourages the officers to interact when concerned, but not to make our decisions for us. In short, if they are not going to ban hiking when there is a potential for snow or thunderstorms, 4-wheeling at any time, rock climbing, or a dozen other things including especially hunting (I'm not against it, but the fact is every once in awhile there is a horrible accident), then they shouldn't be trying to ban whitewater paddling on the few days when we can actually do it.
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hilbili
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Re: Law enforcement

Post by hilbili » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:22 am

also remember that it was just over a year ago when a county and a game warden perished in y city. very close to booneville as a crow flies.
same scenario of middle of the night without warning.
Last edited by hilbili on Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hcarr999
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Re: Law enforcement

Post by Hcarr999 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:49 am

Just kiddin don't really give them the one finger wave. We were told once that spirits creek was closed but after talking with the Forrest service cop he had misunderstood and the bridge was closed not the creek.
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Re: Law enforcement

Post by MissEllie » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:43 am

I understand that since they have to troll for bodies they will try to keep anyone from entering if they feel it would not be wise. Since many/most of them have never kayaked their understanding is not what we would wish. And they may not feel we are a good judge of our abilities.

If there are officers that do kayak they would be the ones to talk with to get some feed back on how to deal with this situation.

I would also recommend that we offer some "free" spots at the next white water school for officers. Let a few learn, and learn to love, kayaking & we all would have an easier time. With education comes understanding.

Also volunteering to help with body searches and other rescue operations in moving water and on lakes would be a good way to win friends in law enforcement. Kayakers can get where other boats can not.

I come from a family of law enforcement. Some of those guys are real jerks BUT many just want to help the public while supporting their families. I always give them an extra inch, you could not pay me enough to be any kind of officer.

This is just a little ol' lady giving her opinion...

:kayak:

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Re: Law enforcement

Post by okieboater » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:14 pm

Plus one on Miss Ellie's suggestion to offer a couple free rides at next years WW or probably better Rec School.
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Roger
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Re: Law enforcement

Post by Roger » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:18 pm

Per the lady's suggestion about giving the LEO's spots in the paddling school, I do know that some of the officers at the Cossatot are going to take swiftwater rescue courses with the usual suspects that represent the ACC. I think it's the last one in August. Had to get funding approval and all.

Learned this while Will Strain gave me a shuttle (boat and all) back up to Ed Banks from the Falls. Will is an enforcement type guy with the park. Learned that he doesn't know what the river is really like since his only experience is paddling in the park's boats in some area without the action. Asked if he would like to paddle raft it with others and he was all with it.

Is it time to reach out to the state and national agencies to offer them the training and skills to help them execute their job in a way that makes for win/win. Lots of local LEA's train their officers in this as well. I know it goes on already, but maybe a more concerted and directed effort? Case in point is the park up at Siloam Springs.

In the meantime, is anybody up to get a few of the Cossatot folks on a raft trip with safety and all? I know it's a crapshoot, but hey we can try!
I am I plus my surroundings and if I do not preserve the latter, I do not preserve myself. Jose Ortega Y Gasset

The earth is like a spaceship that didn't come with an operating manual.
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hilbili
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Re: Law enforcement

Post by hilbili » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:11 am

I had a short conversation with a Forest Service employee(dont know her position) as she was exiting the Federal buiding yesterday, and explained the situation. First she said that I need to talk to the ozark office.LOL then went on to say she knew nothing of it, but COE might be involved, hmmmmm. Looks like the sheriff or county judge might be the only agency involved. has anybody made contact with them ?
tell'em Goober says "hey"!

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panicman
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Re: Law enforcement

Post by panicman » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:37 am

On the sugar creek incident my understanding is that it was a county sheriff lady not forrest people

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Re: Law enforcement

Post by hdh » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:38 pm

we had Andy Senters (former Cossatot interpreter ) set to go to WW school this year but he took a job in St.Louis.....We kayaked Him down the upper before he left..... Also took him down in a two man ducky last year, Cole threw him out in the machine ......I think that's why he left
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Flapjack
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Re: Law enforcement

Post by Flapjack » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:35 pm

It was a Logan county deputy sheriff. I found out monday she had just been on the job for about a couple of weeks. She told one of the guys I was with, later that sunday, that she had no authority to stop us from boating. But I think this will keep happening no matter where we are, when creeks are in flood. I agree with above post that we should offer them a spot in swr class whenever possible. Dennis
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Re: Law enforcement

Post by hilbili » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:33 pm

ten-ford on the co-po. I thought it was on national forest? I was curious because south fourche put in is FS. I ran it for the first time yesterday @ 6.25, and it was fun. 6' is flood on the OWP.
tell'em Goober says "hey"!

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